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Subject: Are we being played with?
Posted by: drguitar0001
Date: 2/27/2011 8:00:47 AM
 
As many of you know, I bought VMS Plat. 10 back in June of 2010. I immediately found out that the program does NOT read Samsung High Def (or even standard def) video properly. The program leaves half second gaps every second.

I contacted Sony tech support immediately and they said they were aware of the issue and that a fix was imminent (again, back in June of 2010). Obviously "imminent" means "whenever we decide to get around to it".

Folks here at the forum have been touting Vegas Pro as the actual fix to VMS 10, so I downloaded Vegas Pro 10(c) and checked it out. Sure enough, Vegas Pro does NOT have the same problem working with the generic Samsung high def codec.

So this brings a few questions to bear:

Did Sony knowingly put out a faulty software program in the hopes that folks would put out a few hundred dollars more for the "upgrade"?

If Vegas Pro is working fine with these "problem codecs", why have they NOT released the simple fix to VMS 10?

While is Vegas Pro is at it's 4th update why is VMS 10 (which was released earlier than Vegas Pro) still awaiting it's first update?

I have supported the Vegas Movie programs as long or longer than anyone here (since Video Factory 1). With this latest version of VMS, I feel like Sony made and is continuing to make a conscience decision to put out a partially working program (works for some but not for others) just to force folks to put out even more cash for their "Premiere" software.

And before anyone responds with, "We don't work for Sony...", please understand that I have contacted Sony repeatedly about this problem with the same response each time, "We'll release an update when we get around to it".

I believe that there are folks at Sony who read these forums and it is my hope that with enough negative response to their lack of good and fair business practices, they may find that it makes sense to fix the broken software that many of us have found ourselves saddled with.

The fact is:
VMS10 does not properly read certain generic codecs while Vegas Pro does. How tough would it be to assign the same "fixes" to a program that is basically all the same code? Why are they holding back?



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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/27/2011 9:07:54 AM
 
'I have supported the Vegas Movie programs as long or longer than anyone here (since Video Factory 1).'

Don't kid yourself, so have a lot of us. :)


It's good to see you don't give up easily! ;) Yes, VMS has many bugs and short commings for sure, Sony support is next to non-existent, and they haven't been very sharp when I have spoken to them in the past. The fact that they haven't even released at least a perfunctory patch after all this time is unconscionable. My guess is that the patch will be released under the title VMS 11 ;) Having said that, do you know of a better program in the price range?? I don't, or I would be there. The truth of the matter is that Sony is a billion dollar company that is highly diversified, and I'm guessing that VMS makes up about .000001% of their profits. How worried do you think they are about this program or it's users?? I hardly think we are the topic of many of their board room meetings! ;) Wish I could think of something more positive to say, but we all feel frustrated to a degree. At least we have so many knowledgeable, and helpful people here to try and make it a better experience. :) Cin
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/27/2011 11:55:31 AM
 
Well, I don't work for Sony, so I don't know of their plans. But I get around a lot to help users, in many forums, and I daily get emails from people asking for vegas or other video help.

Based on this experience, it's my personal opinion that an update for Sony Vegas Platinum 10 is very much needed. The software is 6 to 9 months behind the Pro 10 codebase, and it had new features (like the h.264 optimizations) that were new and immature at the time -- problems that were eventually got fixed on Pro 10. An update should have been offered for Platinum users too, months ago. I'm not sure for this, but I think that's the first Vegas version without an update so far, since its release.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/27/2011 12:58:45 PM
 
I agree with the fact that an update is needed but, let's not kid ourselves. Sony, like most other multi-division / multi-technology etc companies have scaled back big time on human resources.

They will only put out a fix if they absolutely have to, legal issue or other. I also think VMS has come close to the end of it's life span. Sony is notorious for scooping up innovative companies then milking them, cutting costs .i.e. developers, but still raking in the money.

I would be surprised to see another version of VMS hit the shelves in 2011. My guess is in 2012 there will be a new flavor but it will just be a patched version of VMS 10 which should have been given out for free.

Times are tough and little divisions like these with spin off products don't get much funding anymore.

Adobe is in the same boat. Premiere elements is crap. The stability if awful. Patches, not unless they absolutely have to.

The pro versions are a different story, there will be development on them for some time to come but the 'consumer' flavors will always be behind.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/27/2011 1:55:00 PM
 
Here is what I don't understand. If there is a fix (and there obviously is since Vegas Pro works), why hold it back. VMS8 and VMS9 opened these files fine so the assumption for the user would be that VMS10 would work also with the same files. And so many of us bought the program believing what was not true. That is to say, we bought the current software on the reliability of previous versions (that we also bought). Yet Sony changed something in the program so that it would no longer work with files it used to work with?!? It seems to me that a bunch of us paid money for software that Sony broke; we essentially threw away money at a program we were led to believe would work with the same hardware it had worked with in the previous 2 versions of the program.

I guess it is not quite fraud, but it come **** close. More like a bait and switch setup (also illegal). And if the idea is that they may have us buy the next version (as the fix for the current version), then we should get our money back for the current version.

Just to clarify. If a company were to sell a DVD player that they knew would not work with the AC current in certain households, they would need to let the consumer know of this ahead of time or give them their money back. Even worse, if the same company previously built DVD players that worked in those homes and then their latest version no longer worked and refused to return their money, there would be a pretty serious class action lawsuit. Moreover, if the same company claimed that there may be a fix (someday) or that you just need to buy their expensive premium DVD player because that one works, folks would be screaming foul all over and that company would have a nasty public relations problem brewing.

This is no different. And it does not matter whether other companies build better or worse software, it has to do with leading the consumer to believe that their software works and then selling them something that does not.

Buying inexpensive software that does not work is akin to throwing that money in the toilet. I would have preferred the latter since I could have at least wiped my **** with it.
:- (
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/27/2011 7:04:37 PM
 
"do you know of a better program in the price range??"

Yes, there are several. I only upgraded to VMS10 for DVDA5. i don't use VMS for editing any more.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 2/28/2011 9:18:17 AM
 
"Yes, there are several'

Do tell. (I mean that in the nicest sense). I'm not so loyal to Sony, as apparently they aren't to us, that I wouldn't look elsewhere for a better program (just don't know of one). At the end of the day, I want what works the best for me and my projects. Cin
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/1/2011 5:42:03 PM
 
Hmmm...

I expected the standard responses,

"I don't work for Sony, so I don't care" or "It works fine for me; it sucks to be you!"

I guess by the lack of responses, folks either are too embarrassed to respond, don't really care that the software is still broken, or have the magic combination of hardware that works with this software. I appreciate the responses I did receive; they point to a sad truth about this software. Look at the update sticky... it is going on 3 years old. If Sony really does not have the time or inclination to fix their broken software, then why release it in the first place unless they are only in for the bucks and care little about the possible fraud they perpetrate or an end user stuck with useless software.

Do you all really think that Sony will wait and offer a "fix" in the way of VMS 11?

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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/1/2011 8:27:13 PM
 
Doc, you are fighting windmills, and I feel for you, as I am sure many others do, but what can we say?? The program has problems, and Sony doesn't care.............what do we do? Do a search and you will see the ForumAdmin hasn't made a guest appearance for about 8 months!! They should be here every day like Adobe does, but they don't care enough to come and help even occasionally. As for an update, it's been covered before, as Kelly has often said 'those that talk don't know, those that know don't talk.' Sooo much time has gone by that I doubt they will put out an update. I think they will fix what they should have fixed all along, wrap it pretty and sell it as Version 11 (provided they even continue with the product, since it seems they have lost interest, and it's pretty topped out). All that is just my opinion. I'm still waiting for the other poster to recommend the other programs that are better. Cin
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/2/2011 8:54:28 AM
 
I agree with everyone that an update seems overdue for the product.

But I am sorry to inform everyone that there is not a vast conspiracy to intentionally release a faulty product. I also highly doubt that Sony "does not care".

The more simple explanation is likely the right one: There are a heck of a lot of video and audio formats in the world, and sometimes things don't work.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/2/2011 9:16:25 AM
 
The proliferation of formats is definitely a big problem. I waited until DV was ages old before i started using it. I waited until AVCHD was about 2 years old before i bought an HD camcorder. I skipped over HDV completely.

And i still do an awful lot of my final deliveries in plain ol' MPEG-1 ... because ... it Just Plain Works.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/9/2011 7:52:56 AM
 
About a week ago, I sent this question to Sony Support:

"Hi,

I bought this software last June 2010 directly from you folks. After buying it, I found that the same hardware that worked fine for my VMS 8 platinum would not work in the current version of VMS10. I wrote to technical support a few times and received no definitive answer when this software would be fixed. I then called technical support and they said " the problem with importing files from Samsung camcorders was a known issue and that an 'update' fix "was imminent". That was last June. Will there be an update soon, and if not, can I receive a full refund for this software that does not work with my camcorder (even though it did in previous versions).

Thank you"

I have not received any response yet. I will update this when I receive a response and will post the response here.

...fingers crossed...
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/15/2011 9:05:06 AM
 
Well, it is just short of 2 weeks after submitting a question to Sony support. The original question was:

"Hi,

I bought this software last June 2010 directly from you folks. After buying it, I found that the same hardware that worked fine for my VMS 8 platinum would not work in the current version of VMS10. I wrote to technical support a few times and received no definitive answer when this software would be fixed. I then called technical support and they said " the problem with importing files from Samsung camcorders was a known issue and that an 'update' fix "was imminent". That was last June. Will there be an update soon, and if not, can I receive a full refund for this software that does not work with my camcorder (even though it did in previous versions).

Thank you"

...and this is the response I received:

"Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. First, I apologize for the unusually long delay in responding to you. Our new Vegas Pro 10 has been well-received and as such, a high number of people are coming to us for support on this product.

We are not able to schedule updates due to the nature of the testing that needs to be done to ensure the fixes are in place.

If you still have a follow-up question on this particular incident, please feel free to update it. If you have a completely different question, please create a new incident.

Sincerely,

Eric D.
Customer Service & Technical Support
Sony Creative Software Inc
www.sonycreativesoftware.com"

My response will be:

"Since you are unable/unwilling to fix this program, can I assume that you will be issuing refunds for folks who cannot use the program because the software does not work properly? And when can I expect my refund?"

I'll let you know the response when I receive it.

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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 6:40:46 AM
 
Question? do you want to make VNS work or want your $ back ? Cyberlink has a new "true 64 bit" consumer level editing program - which I could not get to even install - it was an upgrade from part of a bundle that came with a BD burner. I punted and asked and got my $$ back thru customer service not tech supt.( talk about no tech support !!).. When I went back to VNS and upgraded to Vers 10 I had a nightmare with my first project - wasted hours getting frustrated - came in here for help and was basically told a few things to check on the PC and Win 7 but that infact VNS does work as advertised if my PC is straight AND they were right - I installed Win 7 SP-1 and the LAA fix and everyting now works as advertised. One of the reasons this forum is used so heavily is that Sony has no real tech support - Eric's name is on every reply I have manage to squeeze out of Sony- and the help was seldom of any value. VNS is beginiing to get traction on other like forums = Muvipix and a place called "creative cow" (a vegas pro place it seems). So suggest you give your PC a good shake out or try to get you $$ back - unfortunately - this forum can not provide much help with either of those options.. Good Luck
K
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 7:15:41 AM
 
I sent a question to support some days ago and gave up and came here. It seems from what I've read so far that I have to give up on Sony Vegas and find some alternative software for home editing on W7 64bit.

As already mentioned in this thread it would be good to see what others recommend.

Just as well this forum isn't any busier - its slower than a slow thing being slow as it is.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 8:14:27 AM
 
You could try this www.serif.com/movieplus/. There's a lively forum with developer participation and bugs get fixed.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 8:47:30 AM
 
Thanks Tog. I didn't see a free trial. Do you know if they offer one? Cin
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 9:45:46 AM
 
No trial but full refund if not happy.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 11:17:23 AM
 
I've just downloaded the trial for Cyberlinks 64bit Ultra. Loaded all my clips with no fuss at all and can run the preview from proxy files for smooth playback whilst editing. Don't know what I'm doing yet but I have 30 days to learn before deciding.

Get your finger out Sony.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/17/2011 12:33:39 PM
 
Ever visited the CL PD9 community support forum? Veery interesting...!
Apart from that, I tend to agree with most of what knockatoone said earlier in this thread...including even the no-installing part.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/18/2011 6:46:02 PM
 
knockatoone,

Thanks for the info. I installed WIn 7 fresh just before I installed VMS 10. I came here for fixes (suggestions) and found that the problem was with the generic HD files that the Samsung camcorder produce. When I contacted Sony, they responded that they already knew about the problem (just a few weeks after the program was released) and that an "update that would fix the problem was imminent".

Now, we are just a few months short of a year and there has not been any update yet. Vegas Pro has had 3 updates since it's release (after VMS 10) and in fact works fine with the Samsung files. In fact, older versions of VMS (8 and 9) both work with the Samsung files (perplexing, isn't it?).

The problem is not with my computer or the OS, the problem is with a glitch added to the VMS 10 version of the program that could be easily fixed with an update.

Just to be clear, I received another response from "Eric". This one backed away from saying that they were not going to release any fixes for VMS 10 and instead inferred that one may come out at sometime;

"Our Customer Service team is not privy to future product release details. We are informed of updates when the press release is announced for the update and Net Notify lists the update as available."

So again, I asked for a refund. Eric responded with this;

"The regular price for Vegas Pro is 599.95 as a download and the upgrade price from the movie studio version is 499.95 as a download. You may use the link at the bottom of this email to receive an additional 20% discount to that upgrade price to Vegas Pro further reducing the price."

It's the bait and switch sales tactic. You offer something at a good price and when the customer finds that either that product does not work or exist, they offer you a much more expensive product.

More to come...


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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/25/2011 4:45:21 PM
 
It's a funny story, I am following this threat because I am awaiting update too.
If this attitude continues I stay away of Sony. It's clear they don't giving it on purpose.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/25/2011 6:48:20 PM
 
"Eric's name is on every reply I have manage to squeeze out of Sony"
He must be one busy sucker ;) Looked over my old support questions, and yep, there was poor old Eric on 10/4/07 !!! LOL In all fairness, I did find one from Kevin K. With over 15 million people out of work, you would think Sony could hire a couple to help! :)
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/26/2011 10:11:45 AM
 
So far, Vegas has worked for me, but, I have another 2 editing programs, never rely on just 1. have Premiere CS4 and Pinnacle 14.
I'm upgrading Pinnacle 14 tto the new Avid program and will upgrate CS4 to CS5.
I've learnt from experience, if one program doesn't do the job, another will.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/28/2011 7:05:51 PM
 
This will be my final post on this topic. After contacting Sony support since last June about this problem (When will there be an update to fix known issues with VMS10?), I finally received what I believe is an actual response.

The famous "Eric" from Sony said that there will be a new VMS 11 Platinum coming out sometime soon (no date was mentioned) and that VMS 11 Platinum would have the fixes needed for VMS 10. Please note that this last round of support emails took 3 weeks to finally get a response that I could live with.

So the answer is that the update to VMS 10 Platinum will be VMS 11 Platinum. As far as I can tell, Sony is not expecting to update the original VMS 10 with the fixes we all need to make it work.

Not great news, but at least I finally got an answer that explains Sony's position on VMS 10.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/29/2011 12:01:28 AM
 
If that is the way things turn out I doubt I will ever buy another product from the company. If goods are faulty I expect them to be fixed free of charge. I am quite happy to pay for an upgrade to get new or improved features but not for bug fixes.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/29/2011 12:16:58 PM
 
Sony doesn't seem to be unique in this regard. By the looks of the activity on Pinnacle's forum, they've done the same thing in releasing no patches for Pinnacle Studio 14 and selling version 15.

I've tried two versions each of Premiere Elements, Pinnacle Studio and Vegas Studio and Vegas has by far been faster and more stable for me, although I fully admit that I do very, very basic editing that Windows Movie Maker could handle. I'm not defending the practice, but it seems that quality issues abound for this type of software, so caveat emptor and give the trial versions a good spin.
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/30/2011 12:26:17 PM
 
"Well, I don't work for Sony." LMAO! Didn't the guy just say something about that phrase?
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Subject: RE: Are we being played with?
Date: 3/30/2011 3:01:21 PM
 
Yes. That's why I wrote it. :-)
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